Melanie (![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small} myprimalscream) wrote,@ 2008-06-04 22:16:00 |
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Childrens Nursery Rhymes
Watching (or rather listening) to CSI or some similar show on CBS this evening I over heard them talk about the poem:
Ring around the rosies,
A pocketful of posies.
ashes, ashes.
We all fall down!
One of the guys said: "You know that is talking about the Bubonic Plague"
Interesting I thought. So I googled it and here is what I found.....
Many have associated the poem with the Great Plague of London in 1665, or with earlier outbreaks of bubonic plague in England.
The "ring around the rosies" is the red ringed rash that was the sure sign of having the plague. If you developed a rash it wasn't serious, unless a red ring appeared around the spot.
A "pocket full of posies" is the flowers brought to a funeral. Or the fact that the smell of decaying bodies was so bad that people began carrying flowers in their pockets to try to ward off the smell.
"ashes ashes" which is because they tried to burn the bodies, rather than bury them. There were too many dying and not enough people to bury them.
The UK, AU, NZ & IND versions say ah-tishoo!, ah-tishoo! as in sneezing
And "we all fall down" is because as people tried to care for the sick, they also became ill and died too.
Wikipedia says:
Interpreters of the rhyme before the second world war make no mention of this, however, it seems to have become well established as an explanation for the form of the rhyme that had become standard in Britain.
Folklore scholars regard the theory as baseless for several reasons:
1. the late appearance of the explanation means that it has no tradition, only the value of its content;[15]
2. the facts described do not fit especially well at least with the Great Plague;[17][20]
3. the great variety of forms makes it unlikely that the modern form is the most ancient one, and the words on which the interpretation are based are not found in many of the earliest records of the rhyme (see above);[18][21]
4. European and 19th century versions of the rhyme suggest that this 'fall' was not a literal falling down, but a curtsy or other form of bending movement that was common in other dramatic singing games.[22]
5. Neither a rosy rash or sneezing were symptoms of the plague (or any plague variation)
But it's still kinda cool.
Here is another I looked up
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water
Jack fell down and broke his crown
And Jill came tumbling after.
Up got Jack, and home did trot
As fast as he could caper
He went to bed and bound his head
With vinegar and brown paper.
Jack and Jill story - The French (history) connection!
The roots of the story, or poem, of Jack and Jill are in France. Jack and Jill referred to are said to be King Louis XVI - Jack -who was beheaded (lost his crown) followed by his Queen Marie Antoinette - Jill - (who came tumbling after). The words and lyrics to the Jack and Jill poem were made more acceptable as a story for children by providing a happy ending! The actual beheadings occurred in during the Reign of Terror in 1793. The first publication date for the lyrics of Jack and Jill rhyme is 1795 - which ties-in with the history and origins. The Jack and Jill poem is also known as Jack and Gill - the mis-spelling of Gill is not uncommon in nursery rhymes as they are usually passed from generation to generation by word of mouth.
Baa, baa, black sheep,
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir,
Three bags full.
One for my master,
One for my dame,
And one for the little boy
Who lives down the lane.
In the Middle Ages, a hard-working peasant was required to give one third of his income to the King, "my master," and one third to the fat nobility, "my dame," leaving only a final third for himself, "the little boy." Payment was made in sacks of wool. In other words it was a tax. Another point about this is that wool from a black sheep was worth quite a lot less than ordinary wool. The term "black sheep" of the family derives from this too.
Goosey Goosey Gander where shall I wander,
Upstairs, downstairs and in my lady's chamber
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers,
I took him by the left leg and threw him down the stairs.
Ok, I heard to explanations for this one...
One being, Goosey Goosey Gander focuses on the moral campaign against Tudor prostitution - goose being a euphemism for streetwalker.
Another
The 'lady's chamber' was a room that once upon a time a high born lady would have her own chamber, (also referred to as a solar). The origins of the nursery rhyme are believed to date back to the 16th century and refer to necessity for Catholic priests to hide in 'Priest Holes' ( very small secret rooms once found in many great houses in England) to avoid persecution from zealous Protestants who were totally against the old Catholic religion. If caught both the priest and members of any family found harbouring them were executed. The moral in Goosey Goosey Gander's lyrics imply that something unpleasant would surely happen to anyone failing to say their prayers correctly - meaning the Protestant Prayers, said in English as opposed to Catholic prayers which were said in Latin!
Wikipedia says:
The rhyme possibly refers to Oliver Cromwell and his Roundheads. The first line is a reference to "goose-stepping" Roundheads who would search houses for Royalists. Anyone who refused to accept Puritan ways was arrested and thrown in jail. "Goosey" was also the nickname of the mistress of King George I, Madame Schulenberg (later the Duchess of Kendal). The "Gander" referred to would therefore be the King himself.
According to amateur historian Chris Roberts, the rhyme is heavily linked to the propaganda campaign against the Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII. A 'goose' was a Tudor euphemism for prostitute [1]and the origin of the term 'goose bumps' can also be traced back to this time, originally meaning the bumps and pustules associated with venereal disease. Other historical sources corroborate this as a moral tale about not being caught with your trousers down.
A 'left leg' or 'left footer' has been handed down historically as a snide term for Catholic, presumably from this rhyme, although according to certain sources, the 'left-legger' part of the rhyme comes from the manner in which the priest was tortured and executed. The priest had a rope tied around his ankle and he was hurled down a set of stone steps repeatedly until the confession was extracted or he was dead or, most likely, both. If the 'old man' (meaning the priest) wouldn't say his prayers in English (as opposed to Latin), he was executed.
~And this my friends is why I prefer to love God over Religion!
For more on this topic
Check out MARY MARY QUITE CONTRARY
or listen th the NPR show on All Things Considered The Real Meaning of Nursery Rhymes October 2, 2005 · Sex, death and cruelty. Chris Roberts, the author of Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind the Rhyme, tells Debbie Elliott what lurks beneath the surface of those verses we learned as children.
Watching (or rather listening) to CSI or some similar show on CBS this evening I over heard them talk about the poem:
Ring around the rosies,
A pocketful of posies.
ashes, ashes.
We all fall down!
One of the guys said: "You know that is talking about the Bubonic Plague"
Interesting I thought. So I googled it and here is what I found.....
Many have associated the poem with the Great Plague of London in 1665, or with earlier outbreaks of bubonic plague in England.
The "ring around the rosies" is the red ringed rash that was the sure sign of having the plague. If you developed a rash it wasn't serious, unless a red ring appeared around the spot.
A "pocket full of posies" is the flowers brought to a funeral. Or the fact that the smell of decaying bodies was so bad that people began carrying flowers in their pockets to try to ward off the smell.
"ashes ashes" which is because they tried to burn the bodies, rather than bury them. There were too many dying and not enough people to bury them.
The UK, AU, NZ & IND versions say ah-tishoo!, ah-tishoo! as in sneezing
And "we all fall down" is because as people tried to care for the sick, they also became ill and died too.
Wikipedia says:
Interpreters of the rhyme before the second world war make no mention of this, however, it seems to have become well established as an explanation for the form of the rhyme that had become standard in Britain.
Folklore scholars regard the theory as baseless for several reasons:
1. the late appearance of the explanation means that it has no tradition, only the value of its content;[15]
2. the facts described do not fit especially well at least with the Great Plague;[17][20]
3. the great variety of forms makes it unlikely that the modern form is the most ancient one, and the words on which the interpretation are based are not found in many of the earliest records of the rhyme (see above);[18][21]
4. European and 19th century versions of the rhyme suggest that this 'fall' was not a literal falling down, but a curtsy or other form of bending movement that was common in other dramatic singing games.[22]
5. Neither a rosy rash or sneezing were symptoms of the plague (or any plague variation)
But it's still kinda cool.
Here is another I looked up
Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water
Jack fell down and broke his crown
And Jill came tumbling after.
Up got Jack, and home did trot
As fast as he could caper
He went to bed and bound his head
With vinegar and brown paper.
Jack and Jill story - The French (history) connection!
The roots of the story, or poem, of Jack and Jill are in France. Jack and Jill referred to are said to be King Louis XVI - Jack -who was beheaded (lost his crown) followed by his Queen Marie Antoinette - Jill - (who came tumbling after). The words and lyrics to the Jack and Jill poem were made more acceptable as a story for children by providing a happy ending! The actual beheadings occurred in during the Reign of Terror in 1793. The first publication date for the lyrics of Jack and Jill rhyme is 1795 - which ties-in with the history and origins. The Jack and Jill poem is also known as Jack and Gill - the mis-spelling of Gill is not uncommon in nursery rhymes as they are usually passed from generation to generation by word of mouth.
Baa, baa, black sheep,
Have you any wool?
Yes sir, yes sir,
Three bags full.
One for my master,
One for my dame,
And one for the little boy
Who lives down the lane.
In the Middle Ages, a hard-working peasant was required to give one third of his income to the King, "my master," and one third to the fat nobility, "my dame," leaving only a final third for himself, "the little boy." Payment was made in sacks of wool. In other words it was a tax. Another point about this is that wool from a black sheep was worth quite a lot less than ordinary wool. The term "black sheep" of the family derives from this too.
Goosey Goosey Gander where shall I wander,
Upstairs, downstairs and in my lady's chamber
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers,
I took him by the left leg and threw him down the stairs.
Ok, I heard to explanations for this one...
One being, Goosey Goosey Gander focuses on the moral campaign against Tudor prostitution - goose being a euphemism for streetwalker.
Another
The 'lady's chamber' was a room that once upon a time a high born lady would have her own chamber, (also referred to as a solar). The origins of the nursery rhyme are believed to date back to the 16th century and refer to necessity for Catholic priests to hide in 'Priest Holes' ( very small secret rooms once found in many great houses in England) to avoid persecution from zealous Protestants who were totally against the old Catholic religion. If caught both the priest and members of any family found harbouring them were executed. The moral in Goosey Goosey Gander's lyrics imply that something unpleasant would surely happen to anyone failing to say their prayers correctly - meaning the Protestant Prayers, said in English as opposed to Catholic prayers which were said in Latin!
Wikipedia says:
The rhyme possibly refers to Oliver Cromwell and his Roundheads. The first line is a reference to "goose-stepping" Roundheads who would search houses for Royalists. Anyone who refused to accept Puritan ways was arrested and thrown in jail. "Goosey" was also the nickname of the mistress of King George I, Madame Schulenberg (later the Duchess of Kendal). The "Gander" referred to would therefore be the King himself.
According to amateur historian Chris Roberts, the rhyme is heavily linked to the propaganda campaign against the Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII. A 'goose' was a Tudor euphemism for prostitute [1]and the origin of the term 'goose bumps' can also be traced back to this time, originally meaning the bumps and pustules associated with venereal disease. Other historical sources corroborate this as a moral tale about not being caught with your trousers down.
A 'left leg' or 'left footer' has been handed down historically as a snide term for Catholic, presumably from this rhyme, although according to certain sources, the 'left-legger' part of the rhyme comes from the manner in which the priest was tortured and executed. The priest had a rope tied around his ankle and he was hurled down a set of stone steps repeatedly until the confession was extracted or he was dead or, most likely, both. If the 'old man' (meaning the priest) wouldn't say his prayers in English (as opposed to Latin), he was executed.
~And this my friends is why I prefer to love God over Religion!
For more on this topic
Check out MARY MARY QUITE CONTRARY
or listen th the NPR show on All Things Considered The Real Meaning of Nursery Rhymes October 2, 2005 · Sex, death and cruelty. Chris Roberts, the author of Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind the Rhyme, tells Debbie Elliott what lurks beneath the surface of those verses we learned as children.
